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	<title>Comments on: Exploiting Fertility Technology:  (Rapid Fire Rant)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://realityrounds.com/2009/07/15/exploiting-fertility-technology-rapid-fire-rant/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://realityrounds.com/2009/07/15/exploiting-fertility-technology-rapid-fire-rant/</link>
	<description>Get a Second Opinion</description>
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		<title>By: for hormone replacement</title>
		<link>http://realityrounds.com/2009/07/15/exploiting-fertility-technology-rapid-fire-rant/#comment-3741</link>
		<dc:creator>for hormone replacement</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Aug 2009 15:54:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://realityrounds.com/?p=2395#comment-3741</guid>
		<description>Bei der Bruststraffung, can bring you?Credit reports #:, an advantage with.And Modem Day, installation You can.Amusement and intimacy for hormone replacement, style drumming with help make jackets.Safe Since Hoodia, University A much.,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bei der Bruststraffung, can bring you?Credit reports #:, an advantage with.And Modem Day, installation You can.Amusement and intimacy for hormone replacement, style drumming with help make jackets.Safe Since Hoodia, University A much.,</p>
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		<title>By: Emma B</title>
		<link>http://realityrounds.com/2009/07/15/exploiting-fertility-technology-rapid-fire-rant/#comment-3126</link>
		<dc:creator>Emma B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 22:15:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://realityrounds.com/?p=2395#comment-3126</guid>
		<description>Just what I said, I think. Two weeks or so of estrogen therapy in order to cause the uterus to grow an endometrium, then add progesterone to cause the endometrium to transform from the proliferative to secretory phase and support an early pregnancy. Estrogen supplementation is done with something like Estrace or Estragel, and it&#039;s pretty straightforward -- estrogen produces endometrium if given in sufficient amounts, and blood tests and transvaginal ultrasounds are used to monitor blood estradiol levels and endometrial thickness. I suppose a uterus which had long since quit producing estrogen could require a longer duration, but we&#039;re still talking weeks. I once needed six weeks of estrogen therapy for a non-age-related problem, and my RE indicated that he&#039;d never seen another patient of any age require such a long treatment. 

Progesterone supplementation is standard in both regular IVF, frozen embryo cycles, and donor egg transfers. Either the follicles are punctured for egg retrieval, or the woman didn&#039;t ovulate at all that cycle and is getting an embryo produced at an earlier time or by someone else. It&#039;s usually done with progesterone in oil shots in the US, but it&#039;s also done with vaginal suppositories or gels like Crinone, and occasionally even with oral Prometrium. 

I think the doctor in question phrased it as &quot;uterine rejuvenation&quot; because that sounded better than &quot;regrowing uterine lining with estrogen&quot;, or possibly the reporter took liberties with the description (media coverage of infertility is pretty terrible). I checked with my mom, who has 25 years&#039; experience as a reproductive endocrinology nurse; that&#039;s how they treat their menopausal patients, and she&#039;s not aware of any protocol other than standard estrogen/progesterone supplementation that would qualify. They&#039;ve never treated anyone in her 60s, but they have treated women in their late 40s and early 50s, as well as younger women in menopause. The numerical age is less important than the hormonal profile, and a 50-year-old menopausal woman is no different from a 30-year-old with premature ovarian failure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just what I said, I think. Two weeks or so of estrogen therapy in order to cause the uterus to grow an endometrium, then add progesterone to cause the endometrium to transform from the proliferative to secretory phase and support an early pregnancy. Estrogen supplementation is done with something like Estrace or Estragel, and it&#8217;s pretty straightforward &#8212; estrogen produces endometrium if given in sufficient amounts, and blood tests and transvaginal ultrasounds are used to monitor blood estradiol levels and endometrial thickness. I suppose a uterus which had long since quit producing estrogen could require a longer duration, but we&#8217;re still talking weeks. I once needed six weeks of estrogen therapy for a non-age-related problem, and my RE indicated that he&#8217;d never seen another patient of any age require such a long treatment. </p>
<p>Progesterone supplementation is standard in both regular IVF, frozen embryo cycles, and donor egg transfers. Either the follicles are punctured for egg retrieval, or the woman didn&#8217;t ovulate at all that cycle and is getting an embryo produced at an earlier time or by someone else. It&#8217;s usually done with progesterone in oil shots in the US, but it&#8217;s also done with vaginal suppositories or gels like Crinone, and occasionally even with oral Prometrium. </p>
<p>I think the doctor in question phrased it as &#8220;uterine rejuvenation&#8221; because that sounded better than &#8220;regrowing uterine lining with estrogen&#8221;, or possibly the reporter took liberties with the description (media coverage of infertility is pretty terrible). I checked with my mom, who has 25 years&#8217; experience as a reproductive endocrinology nurse; that&#8217;s how they treat their menopausal patients, and she&#8217;s not aware of any protocol other than standard estrogen/progesterone supplementation that would qualify. They&#8217;ve never treated anyone in her 60s, but they have treated women in their late 40s and early 50s, as well as younger women in menopause. The numerical age is less important than the hormonal profile, and a 50-year-old menopausal woman is no different from a 30-year-old with premature ovarian failure.</p>
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		<title>By: realityrounds</title>
		<link>http://realityrounds.com/2009/07/15/exploiting-fertility-technology-rapid-fire-rant/#comment-3124</link>
		<dc:creator>realityrounds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 18:47:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://realityrounds.com/?p=2395#comment-3124</guid>
		<description>Emma,
Thanks so much for your comment.  I was really curious about the cancer related risks with infertility treatment in women greater than 50. Do you know what the article meant when it said the 66 year old woman had &quot;uterine rejuvenation&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Emma,<br />
Thanks so much for your comment.  I was really curious about the cancer related risks with infertility treatment in women greater than 50. Do you know what the article meant when it said the 66 year old woman had &#8220;uterine rejuvenation&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Emma B</title>
		<link>http://realityrounds.com/2009/07/15/exploiting-fertility-technology-rapid-fire-rant/#comment-3120</link>
		<dc:creator>Emma B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 15:30:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://realityrounds.com/?p=2395#comment-3120</guid>
		<description>Gah, I totally forgot to mention one other very important thing, which is what I get for posting too late at night.

Late-life pregnancies are, almost without exception, donor-egg pregnancies. That means that the woman who gets pregnant doesn&#039;t actually undergo the ovarian stimulation that is necessary to produce multiple follicles for IVF -- some other, younger woman does. The intended mother merely takes a short course of estrogen, two weeks or so, which causes her uterine lining to grow enough to make pregnancy possible, and two weeks of progesterone after embryo transfer. The estrogen levels aren&#039;t raised higher than normal as with ovulation induction -- they are raised just enough to mimic a normally ovulating/menstruating woman.

So, the &quot;extensive hormone maniuplation&quot; we&#039;re talking about, for donor egg late-life pregnancies, is roughly on par with a single month of HRT. It&#039;s not really something to get that excited about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gah, I totally forgot to mention one other very important thing, which is what I get for posting too late at night.</p>
<p>Late-life pregnancies are, almost without exception, donor-egg pregnancies. That means that the woman who gets pregnant doesn&#8217;t actually undergo the ovarian stimulation that is necessary to produce multiple follicles for IVF &#8212; some other, younger woman does. The intended mother merely takes a short course of estrogen, two weeks or so, which causes her uterine lining to grow enough to make pregnancy possible, and two weeks of progesterone after embryo transfer. The estrogen levels aren&#8217;t raised higher than normal as with ovulation induction &#8212; they are raised just enough to mimic a normally ovulating/menstruating woman.</p>
<p>So, the &#8220;extensive hormone maniuplation&#8221; we&#8217;re talking about, for donor egg late-life pregnancies, is roughly on par with a single month of HRT. It&#8217;s not really something to get that excited about.</p>
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		<title>By: Emma B</title>
		<link>http://realityrounds.com/2009/07/15/exploiting-fertility-technology-rapid-fire-rant/#comment-3116</link>
		<dc:creator>Emma B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 06:54:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://realityrounds.com/?p=2395#comment-3116</guid>
		<description>You say you&#039;re not so harsh on older men who father children because they don&#039;t lie and exploit the system. Honestly, though, what difference does it make to their children? Spontaneously conceived children whose parents die at an early age are just as orphaned as IVF babies. 

I&#039;m also skeptical about the risks of IVF hormones in older women. &quot;Extensive hormone treatments&quot; sounds scary, but when you look at the actual drugs and procedures, it&#039;s not as bad. HRT is used for many months or years, while each IVF cycle only involves one to two weeks of ovarian stimulation, and two more weeks of progesterone supplementation (unless pregnancy is achieved). Furthermore, the estrogen levels are only raised above a normal ovulatory level according to how many follicles are produced, which is determined by the woman&#039;s age and ovarian reserve. Menopausal women are hard to stimulate and frequently produce no more than three or four eggs, meaning that their E2 levels max out at only 3-4x normal. Perimenopause itself can cause that kind of transient elevation -- it&#039;s not uncommon for women to produce multiple eggs toward the end of their reproductive years, which is why twins are more common in this age group. The hormone elevations of pregnancy itself are orders of magnitude above and beyond that produced by the IVF process, and again, for much longer periods than brief IVF cycles.

Ovulation induction certainly is no picnic -- I&#039;ve had ovarian hyperstimulation, so I have a personal appreciation of the finer points. Nor am I a fan of late-life pregnancies in general, although I don&#039;t think IVF clinics should be legally prevented from doing them. However, I do think that an IVF pregnancy at 50 is not qualitatively worse than a spontaneous one, and that talking about the &quot;extensive hormone manipulation&quot; involved is somewhat exaggerated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You say you&#8217;re not so harsh on older men who father children because they don&#8217;t lie and exploit the system. Honestly, though, what difference does it make to their children? Spontaneously conceived children whose parents die at an early age are just as orphaned as IVF babies. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m also skeptical about the risks of IVF hormones in older women. &#8220;Extensive hormone treatments&#8221; sounds scary, but when you look at the actual drugs and procedures, it&#8217;s not as bad. HRT is used for many months or years, while each IVF cycle only involves one to two weeks of ovarian stimulation, and two more weeks of progesterone supplementation (unless pregnancy is achieved). Furthermore, the estrogen levels are only raised above a normal ovulatory level according to how many follicles are produced, which is determined by the woman&#8217;s age and ovarian reserve. Menopausal women are hard to stimulate and frequently produce no more than three or four eggs, meaning that their E2 levels max out at only 3-4x normal. Perimenopause itself can cause that kind of transient elevation &#8212; it&#8217;s not uncommon for women to produce multiple eggs toward the end of their reproductive years, which is why twins are more common in this age group. The hormone elevations of pregnancy itself are orders of magnitude above and beyond that produced by the IVF process, and again, for much longer periods than brief IVF cycles.</p>
<p>Ovulation induction certainly is no picnic &#8212; I&#8217;ve had ovarian hyperstimulation, so I have a personal appreciation of the finer points. Nor am I a fan of late-life pregnancies in general, although I don&#8217;t think IVF clinics should be legally prevented from doing them. However, I do think that an IVF pregnancy at 50 is not qualitatively worse than a spontaneous one, and that talking about the &#8220;extensive hormone manipulation&#8221; involved is somewhat exaggerated.</p>
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		<title>By: Rose</title>
		<link>http://realityrounds.com/2009/07/15/exploiting-fertility-technology-rapid-fire-rant/#comment-3106</link>
		<dc:creator>Rose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jul 2009 12:29:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://realityrounds.com/?p=2395#comment-3106</guid>
		<description>http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/210692
article about a 50 year old who had a baby then had a heart attack a few days later!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/210692" rel="nofollow">http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/210692</a><br />
article about a 50 year old who had a baby then had a heart attack a few days later!</p>
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		<title>By: Julie</title>
		<link>http://realityrounds.com/2009/07/15/exploiting-fertility-technology-rapid-fire-rant/#comment-3066</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 05:39:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://realityrounds.com/?p=2395#comment-3066</guid>
		<description>I had a patient who was 63 and had also lied to the infertility clinic. There needs to be accountability...somehow, someway. She looked every day of her 63 years. Gimme a break. These clinics are unethical!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had a patient who was 63 and had also lied to the infertility clinic. There needs to be accountability&#8230;somehow, someway. She looked every day of her 63 years. Gimme a break. These clinics are unethical!</p>
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		<title>By: Carrie</title>
		<link>http://realityrounds.com/2009/07/15/exploiting-fertility-technology-rapid-fire-rant/#comment-3062</link>
		<dc:creator>Carrie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 01:10:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://realityrounds.com/?p=2395#comment-3062</guid>
		<description>I wonder if her death was related in any way to the pregnancy and subsequent childrearing. I have twins, and I cannot imagine -caring- for them as a single woman pushing 70, never mind gestating them beforehand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if her death was related in any way to the pregnancy and subsequent childrearing. I have twins, and I cannot imagine -caring- for them as a single woman pushing 70, never mind gestating them beforehand.</p>
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		<title>By: Pattie, RN</title>
		<link>http://realityrounds.com/2009/07/15/exploiting-fertility-technology-rapid-fire-rant/#comment-3054</link>
		<dc:creator>Pattie, RN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 15:19:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://realityrounds.com/?p=2395#comment-3054</guid>
		<description>Maybe, just maybe, the Creator or the Universe or what ever you want to call him or her had some pretty good guidlines going all these millenium??  

Like, 99.99999% of the time throughout history, Moms (or their female relatives) were the caretakers of small children, which is labor intensive [no pun intended!] and exhausting work if you are doing it correctly.  IE--not work for an old woman.  

Men, meanwhile, could go on to mates number 2,3,and more as mate #1 died from childbirth or disease...and continue to impregnate young healthy women.  So Papa dies...as long as the clan is there, no big problem.  Mama dies = baby dies too.  So the factory shuts down long before Mama runs out of natural time.  It is not nice to fool Mother Nature, especially not to make a child who is created for YOUR needs, not for his or her own intrinsic value.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe, just maybe, the Creator or the Universe or what ever you want to call him or her had some pretty good guidlines going all these millenium??  </p>
<p>Like, 99.99999% of the time throughout history, Moms (or their female relatives) were the caretakers of small children, which is labor intensive [no pun intended!] and exhausting work if you are doing it correctly.  IE&#8211;not work for an old woman.  </p>
<p>Men, meanwhile, could go on to mates number 2,3,and more as mate #1 died from childbirth or disease&#8230;and continue to impregnate young healthy women.  So Papa dies&#8230;as long as the clan is there, no big problem.  Mama dies = baby dies too.  So the factory shuts down long before Mama runs out of natural time.  It is not nice to fool Mother Nature, especially not to make a child who is created for YOUR needs, not for his or her own intrinsic value.</p>
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		<title>By: Pattie, RN</title>
		<link>http://realityrounds.com/2009/07/15/exploiting-fertility-technology-rapid-fire-rant/#comment-3053</link>
		<dc:creator>Pattie, RN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 15:12:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://realityrounds.com/?p=2395#comment-3053</guid>
		<description>ITA.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ITA.</p>
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